Good article in TIME on the Pope's upcoming visit to primarily Muslim Turkey. Given Benedict's recent comments, the current barometer of Islam in general and the fact that this is a somewhat historic visit in it's own right, the article is worth your read.Two things of note:
1. Benedict's comments and uproar from the visit to Regensburg, Germany in September, are again, mentioned in the article...along with the quoted quote from Manuel II Paleologus: "Show me just what the Muhammad brought that was new." This idea is interesting in lieu of my second favorite book, "The Everlasting Man" by G.K. Chesterton. By far it is his most difficult book to read. In it he traces the history of the world, religiously, up until the supposed coming of Christ and then looks at the history of the world, religiously, from that point on. It's a marvelous work that makes a similar point as Paleologus: That nothing like Christianity existed until the supposed coming of Christ and since then subsequent "new" religions that have propagated the world are merely derivations of Christianity (i.e. Islam, Zoroastrianism, Gnosticism).
He makes the point with a little more romanticism and imagination and, in my opinion, although it is a truly sublime (GRE word!) work, well worth a read and re-read. It's quite challenging. G.K. doesn't force you to agree with him. He isn't polarizing either (meaning you don't have to be religious to find it engaging). I mention the book because it's well written and will make you think-- for good or for bad.
2. Along the same lines and back to the article, the TIME author, in hopes of, for some reason, proving Benedict a fool for the quoting (which has it's merit -- to a point) mentions that Islam is widely credited with bringing about algebra. Gee. Thanks.
10 comments:
Isn't the first half of the Christian religion based on Judaism? Or rather, isn't it Judaism to a T? The First Testament it the Torah, is it not?
And if there wasn't anything like Christianity before Christ, doesn't that just make Christianity the first cult?
And if that's the case, then would we all be living in Texas?
First of all we're not drinking kool-aid -- it's wine in the Eucharist -- so I wouldn't call us a cult. Nor do I seem to follow your thought.
Second -- good point. Perhaps I should let the author explain his point instead of trying to sound bookish and do it for him. To clarify -- he points out the history of the world religiously up until the time of Christ -- showing how the "fullness of time" was present in the world. And from there, in christianity something entirely unique is found, something entirely original.
You're right, the Old Testament and the Torah are similar. And thus making my point illly made and in need of clarification. It's a good book even if I don't do it justice!
And there's nothing wrong with Texas -- I like Texas -- even Waco -- my friends live there.
Most of what is known as "Christianity" has been derived from other religions. For example, the Christian cult of virginity comes from the cult of Vesta (aka Hespera, associated with the prayers of "vespers"). Don't forget that Romulus and Remus were born of a Vestal virgin.
The festivals that are called "Christian" all have pre-Christian origins. Even the sacraments of bread and wine are pre-Christian in origin.
Why did Jesus walk on water? Because Orion walked on water. The list goes on and on.
You bring up valid points. Only -- the Christian cult of virginity? Are you referencing Catholicism's emphasis on Mary? And Romulus and Remus -- is that Greek Mythology or planets in Star Trek? Sorry -- born and bred trekkie.
Are the similarities to stories found in other religions that disconcerting? Would you rather of had Jesus breaking bread with his pal Xenu? Would you rather of had Jesus in temple as a 12-year-old talking about thetans? Would you have believed in the uniqueness then?
If Christ was who he said he was, as the Bible claims, walking on water and eating bread and drinking wine are just things we should expect him to do.
I don't think you need to be drinking Kool-Aid to be in a cult. I'm just saying that if Christianity is truly unique, if it was the first of its kind, then really it was the first cult. It was the first religion to believe the savior - Christ - has come already.
I could be wrong, but I know this is true for Judaism: Most religions are still waiting for their savior. Christianity is now waiting for the second coming.
And the Old Testament isn't just similar to the Torah, it is the Torah. In my opinion Christianity as a whole is just a branch of Judaism, much like Presbyterianism and what-not. It's the same religion that branched off, saying the savior has come.
I have to agree with Sophia, though. It seems that nearly all the ideas in all the religions are very similar, and have taken things from older belief systems and made them their own.
I'm not sure if any of this makes sense, but in my head it is clear and concise. Just can't get it on paper the right way.
I'm sure the book referenced is very good and interesting. Maybe I'll pick it up sometime.
It is a good book. A bit more laborious than the Space book though -- still makes for a great read.
I see what you're saying. But as for Judaism containing Christianity, an analogy: Like an apple that grows on a tree limb, there comes a point where the apple becomes too big and falls to the ground. This is especially the case in these two religions because the central premise of the latter is denied in the former. I'm not sure how Christianity can then be see as being contained in something like Judaism when the central premise is denied.
If anything, based on my small knowledge of Islam, I'd say it is the case between that and Judaism.
Also, are you just being argumentative cause you destroyed me in FFL and are feeling lucky? :) BTW, let's get this started now, da Bears is gonna get killed by the Pats.
Thank you for the discussion on the merits on Christianity. Can I suggest that the current defintion of 'cult' is rather new in its terminolgy. As used by Biblical scholars, it simply refers to the religion of the culture and its worship rituals.
The Old Testament, 'Hebrew Scriptures' include the Torah, Writings and the Prophets (39 books in most modern day translations). If we allow it to speak on its own merits without preconceived ideas (which is not always easy) one can find truth.
To indicate that Christianity borrows from other older religions, I would argue that myth (=old stories with some kernal of truth) point to something greater, even if it is not understood or has been hidden by humanity's pension for self.
Very interesting thread. Thanks anonymous for the corrections on Torah vs. Hebrew Sriptures as a whole.
May I suggest the book Our Father Abraham, by Marvin Wilson. It's all about the Jewish roots of Christian faith and it's really good (and I'm not just saying that because he was my professor).
The Christian cult of virginity manifests in ways other than in the worship of the physical (human) mother of Jesus. There is an obsession over virginity in Church writings and internal polity. There is also a thread of sexual repression in general Christian culture.
Romulus and Remus were two brothers who founded the city of Rome (according to legend). Naturally, the name of the Romulan tribe of Star Trek fame is derived from the legendary figure.
I recommend classical studies to anyone who wants to truly understand Christ. It helps to put the Gospels into a thorough context. Even Erasmus espoused the classics.
Agreed. I've tried through the years to make reading of the classics a priority. Sometimes that brings me back to antiquity --sometimes it does not. But it's important and good reading for anybody out there. A good source for figuring out what the classics are is The Syntopicon and The Great Books of the Western World by Mortimer J. Adler (Encyclopedia Britannica founder). It's a bottomless source into the past for classic literature and also of topics written about throughout written history.
I also see your point with the "cult of virginity" now. One the previous responders was right -- I was employing a much more modern view of the world cult than I should have.
And sorry for the bad Star Trek joke!
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